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Post by ugly on Mar 27, 2007 9:23:04 GMT -5
Are those of us who want immigration reform and dont want illegal immigrants to stay here? Or are we realistic about the actual harm that illegal aliens do. I am not only talking about hispanic illegals but all illegals. I just heard a great analogy on the radio
If someone breaks into your house and does everything you dont want to do. Cleans your house, takes out the trash all the stuff you hate to do. When you get home you find the intruder in your home, do you let the intruder stay simply because they did what you didnt want to.
No you dont, you call the police because they still broke the law. Another analogy: If a pregnant women breaks into your house and has a her baby, is that baby your to take care of. No its not you had nothing to do with the child being in your house and you have no responsability to it and you would not take any for it.
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Post by ugly on Mar 27, 2007 9:23:52 GMT -5
Also allowing Mexican trucking in America is a terrible idea.
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Post by Flop the Nuts on Mar 27, 2007 10:10:16 GMT -5
America is definitely racist. Affirmative action programs are the definition of racism.
Having said that, ILLEGAL immigrants are discriminated against primarily because they are ILLEGAL.
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Post by bonniej2 on Mar 27, 2007 10:23:15 GMT -5
Yes, you could say we are racist. We are all God's children. Whether we should let them stay or not, I don't know, but we need to be more compassionate about our actions and aware of the disparity of our wealth. "...to whom much is given, much will be required."
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Post by Spicoli on Mar 27, 2007 10:47:59 GMT -5
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Post by matclone on Mar 27, 2007 11:03:26 GMT -5
Are those of us who want immigration reform and dont want illegal immigrants to stay here?
No, concern over immigration doesn't make anyone a racist. However, if you don't understand that racism adds fuel to the anti-immigrant movement, or that this is manna to racists everywhere, then you're not seeing an important part of the picture.
Or are we realistic about the actual harm that illegal aliens do.
No. I routinely hear outrageous, unsupported, and false claims made about the effects of immigration. If you really want to know, I can provide some credible studies about the effects (but many people don't want to know--apparently having invested too much in hating those who are different than them).
I am not only talking about hispanic illegals but all illegals.
If you say so. The Denver Library was villified by the anti-immigrant movement (radio and protests) for carrying Spanish speaking materials (even though 20% of Denver population speaks Spanish). What do you think about this?
I didn't hear any complaints about waving of the Irish flag all over this nation on March 17 this year. Why not?
I just heard a great analogy on the radio
Analogies are fine. But where's your concern about the myriad of others laws that are broken in this country? For example, there are more illegal drug users in Colorado than there are undocumented immigrants. The drug users are obviously a significant burden to the state fisc. The immigrants are not. Where's the concern? Why aren't they talking about this on the radio?
Finally, I think we all agree that undocumented immigration is a problem and we need to reform our laws. It's fine to growl and knash our teeth at these purportedly sub-human people, and wail that someone called someone a racist, but what do you propose we do to fix the problem? What do you propose we do to change our laws?
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Post by Spicoli on Mar 27, 2007 12:59:40 GMT -5
If you say so. The Denver Library was villified by the anti-immigrant movement (radio and protests) for carrying Spanish speaking materials (even though 20% of Denver population speaks Spanish). What do you think about this?I think they should assimilate and speak English. Pretty simple.
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Post by FloggingSully on Mar 27, 2007 13:14:24 GMT -5
How do you know they don't know English?
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Post by Spicoli on Mar 27, 2007 13:37:58 GMT -5
Foggy, look up the word assimilate.
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Avallone
Round of 12
Im just a big hairy American winning machine
Posts: 335
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Post by Avallone on Mar 27, 2007 14:09:32 GMT -5
If you say so. The Denver Library was villified by the anti-immigrant movement (radio and protests) for carrying Spanish speaking materials (even though 20% of Denver population speaks Spanish). What do you think about this?I think they should assimilate and speak English. Pretty simple. I agree, if they are here legally and learn our language I have no problem with them. Why should my children be forced to learn spanish in school? Why is Italian or French not offered? All the German, Irish, Italian and all the other immigrants that formed this country learned to speak English and assimilate why should we make exceptions now?
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Post by satiev1 on Mar 27, 2007 14:34:55 GMT -5
I don't know what school you go to, but in most high schools in CA spanish is not mandatory.
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Post by matclone on Mar 27, 2007 14:38:26 GMT -5
Neither one of you answered Sully's perfectly legitimate question yet you continue to assert "they" aren't assimilating. Based on what? Avollone, no one's forcing your children to learn Spanish. Secondly, the assimiliation of prior waves of immigrants has taken on a sort of mythical status, that is unsupported by any history I've read. To the contrary, German immigrants in the 20th century, in several places sought to establish German-only (not bilingual) schools. They were unsuccessful but this history kind of blows away the notion that "they" (painting all as one) were eager assimilators.
The reality and history of immigration shows that first wave immigrants often struggle with a new language: some learn it and some don't. The next generation, however, is fully versed in English, as they are surrounded by English culture. Today's immigrants are no different. If you have evidence to the contrary, please let me know.
But you see the nature of the debate in Sully's question and Spicoli's response. Sully's question complicates the issue. Spicoli's response attempts to force the issue back, as if to say, I don't want any complication. I just want it simple black and white.
I'm not saying anything about Spicoli, but clearly the anti-immigrant movement loathes any complication. It's easier to hate, if you continuously paint a black and white picture. Thus, we get comments like "'they' dont' pay taxes". Well if I paid my neighbor to fix my car, and he didn't report that income (and you know this happens all over), we would never say, "they (mechanics) don't pay taxes" (grrr), or, "those dirty plumbers don't pay taxes". And if you go to Italian town in your city, and hear an older couple carrying on a conversation in Italian, no one would think of saying "They (Italians) don't want to assimilate". And if you see the Irish waving an Irish flag, as an expression of pride in their heritage, you'd never think of saying "they (Irish) don't want to assimilate".
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Post by Flop the Nuts on Mar 27, 2007 14:41:29 GMT -5
How do you know they don't know English? If they know English, then why would the City of Denver need to spend money to print documents in any other language?
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Post by matclone on Mar 27, 2007 14:44:54 GMT -5
They might be bilingual, as many people across this globe are.
Besides, Spanish-speaking people lived in this state long before English speakers arrived.
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Post by Flop the Nuts on Mar 27, 2007 14:52:38 GMT -5
If they are bilingual, then they can read the English printed documentation. Where do you draw the line? If there are potentially 10 languages that Americans might speak, then do we need to print government documents in all ten languages?
I'm not trying to be funny or obtuse, I'd just like to know how much money the government should spend on people who apparently can't speak (or are unwilling to) speak English. My preference would be "very little".
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