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Post by matclone on Mar 30, 2007 12:16:56 GMT -5
Clone do you think anyoe should be able to enter the country illegaly?
WTF do you think? When I talk about rhetoric (which you resort to again), is that just a meaningless concept, or does it matter?
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Post by ugly on Mar 30, 2007 12:18:21 GMT -5
So what I am saying is accurate. I am not ripping the departmenst who specialize in deportation and immigration enforcement. THe fact remains police are here to enforce the laws period. If pot is legal in your state but illegal nationaly that means its illegal and the Police should enforce that. Now if the Police cant enforce the laws effectively because of some jurisdiction issue thenmaybe we should adopt a national police force. So there isnt any confusion and the Police can serve and protect effectively.
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Post by ugly on Mar 30, 2007 12:20:20 GMT -5
Clone do you think anyoe should be able to enter the country illegaly?WTF do you think? When I talk about rhetoric (which you resort to again), is that just a meaningless concept, or does it matter? I just want to know. I have heard you come up with every argument against the people who want immigration reform and no arguments for reform.
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Post by matclone on Mar 30, 2007 12:21:18 GMT -5
"the anti-immigrant movement" That's not the same "movement" as the anti-illegal immigrant movement, is it? I want to be sure what movement I'm a part of. I'm all for immigration, legally. It's the illegal immigrants that should be treated as if they are behaving illegally. Crazy concept, huh? The problem is, Flop, the worst sort of racists make this same argument, so it is often made disingenously (see my previous comments about the Denver library for an example). I don't have a good way of separating people who are genuinely concerned, and those who are just interested in hate. Most of the rhetoric is coming from the latter. So I guess I will refer to it from now on as the anti-Mexican movement. Okay?
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Post by ugly on Mar 30, 2007 12:23:57 GMT -5
"the anti-immigrant movement" That's not the same "movement" as the anti-illegal immigrant movement, is it? I want to be sure what movement I'm a part of. I'm all for immigration, legally. It's the illegal immigrants that should be treated as if they are behaving illegally. Crazy concept, huh? The problem is, Flop, the worst sort of racists make this same argument, so it is often made disingenously (see my previous comments about the Denver library for an example). I don't have a good way of separating people who are genuinely concerned, and those who are just interested in hate. Most of the rhetoric is coming from the latter. So I guess I will refer to it from no on as the anti-Mexican movement. Okay? I only speak about the Mexicans because in the southwest they are 99% of the illegal aliens, but the issue isnt only about them.
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Post by matclone on Mar 30, 2007 12:25:39 GMT -5
Clone do you think anyoe should be able to enter the country illegaly?WTF do you think? When I talk about rhetoric (which you resort to again), is that just a meaningless concept, or does it matter? I just want to know. I have heard you come up with every argument against the people who want immigration reform and no arguments for reform. I have consistently and quite often argued for reform. McCain-Kennedy being the best model I've seen so far. I dont' know what else to say.
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Post by phillywrestler on Mar 30, 2007 12:25:41 GMT -5
Philly, If you have ever lived in a southwestern state the people down here have always known and the average citizen that wasnt a construction company owner has always complained about it. I lived twelve miles from the Mexican border for five years, and I have lived in Texas for fifteen years. The average citizen in South Texas lives in homes constructed with undocumented labor. Our homes and rent are cheaper than comparable housing in the Northeast or California. The kitchens in most restaurants in South Texas are staffed with undocumented immigrants. Undocumented immigrants mow most of the lawns in my community. They clean a lot of the homes. They pick the cotton and beats. They fix cars, staff hotels, and do all kinds of other jobs. Ninety-five percent of the legal American residents in South Texas benefit from undocumented labor when they pay rent, go out to eat, buy a home, or stay in a hotel. In Texas, we all knew that undocumented immigrants were providing services for us, yet we looked the other way when it benefited us. We accepted the blood and sweat of these people and now we owe them the opportunity to continue on with their lives.
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Post by ugly on Mar 30, 2007 12:30:53 GMT -5
Philly,
You make a great point, I think the problem then is that the illegal alien is not benefiting from the deal. Sure they are in America but they are getting screwed, but what do you do give an illegal Alien the same wage as an immigrant who came over legaly?
So living in Texas you know what it is like, I can only speak for AZ and my experience there. I would say that everyone benefited from the illegal aliens cheap labor but everyone still bitched about them being here illegaly.
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Post by FloggingSully on Mar 30, 2007 12:31:51 GMT -5
Ugly, How did you know that the 15-25 people in the hotel room were all illegal immigrants?
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Post by matclone on Mar 30, 2007 12:34:35 GMT -5
Ugly: More than anything I feel that THe American gov. should partner with the Mexican gov. to develop a strategy to improve Mexico for its citizens. We are more than willing to dump billions in aid to Africa and we should bemore than willing to the same for our neighbors to the south.
Bonnie: I have no idea what we give to Africa, but I'm sure it's not extravagant compared to the need. It's frustrating that there isn't more that our government can/will do. Did NAFTA improve the quality of life of the average Mexican/Central American? I don't have any stats on that either, but my general impression is that it hasn't.
As Bonnie correctly insinuates, we did come to an agreement with the Mexican govt, and it's called NAFTA. It's resulted in American ag corps underselling Mexican farmers, and taking them out of their livelihood. It's resulted in American corps crossing the border and establishing factories, and luring people from the Mexican interior (many women) to work there on the border. Then sometimes those factories close and move to China, or wherever labor can be had even cheaper. In short, NAFTA has arguably impoverished a lot of people in Mexico and that's one reason many come North.
Ask your Congressman about NAFTA next time s/he mentions immigration because s/he is unlikely to mention it otherwise.
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Post by ugly on Mar 30, 2007 12:36:18 GMT -5
The fact that they had no ID and could not speak any english was the first clue, the second clue was they tried to hide when I came to the door. And finaly asking them where they lived and them not having a clue where they were.
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Post by matclone on Mar 30, 2007 12:38:58 GMT -5
In Texas, we all knew that undocumented immigrants were providing services for us, yet we looked the other way when it benefited us. We accepted the blood and sweat of these people and now we owe them the opportunity to continue on with their lives.
This situation is touched on briefly but most excellently in the film "Lone Star" (1996)--a story about Texas.
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Post by bonniej2 on Mar 30, 2007 12:43:03 GMT -5
Bonnie like I said you can only give so much. Let me ask you Christian or not would you give to someone so much that it brought down your ability to provide your family with the standard of living they are used to or deserve? First of all, I've never claimed to be a Christian - although I was raised as one and still live by the tenets of Christianity, I am wary to be associated with many of the recent directions of it. Would I be willing to give to someone so much that it brought down my ability to provide my family with the standard of living they are used to or deserve? What does that mean? What does anyone deserve? Do my children deserve a Playstation, Xbox, the right gym shoes,designer jeans and too much crap? Heck no! We all need to stop being so concerned about bring down our sacrosanct "standard of living" and become citizens of the world.
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Post by ugly on Mar 30, 2007 12:47:48 GMT -5
I know you never claimed to be Christian I wasnt trying to label you as one, so I apologise if it seemed that way. By standard of living I mean where you live, what you live in, how often your kids can eat things like that. I dont count luxury as a standard of living.
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Post by phillywrestler on Mar 30, 2007 12:51:03 GMT -5
Philly, You make a great point, I think the problem then is that the illegal alien is not benefiting from the deal. Sure they are in America but they are getting screwed, but what do you do give an illegal Alien the same wage as an immigrant who came over legally? So living in Texas you know what it is like, I can only speak for AZ and my experience there. I would say that everyone benefited from the illegal aliens cheap labor but everyone still bitched about them being here illegaly. Every single undocumented person a know wants to be a legal American resident. If they could have come legally, they would have. The United States does not just hand out visas. The average person in Tegucigalpa or Guadalajara does not have money to educate himself or herself in order to apply for a specialized work visa. They cannot afford to open a business or invest in the United States economy. They have no hope of getting a legal visa. What would you do if you lived in poverty with no education and no hope for a better life? I would do almost anything I could. I would not think twice about US immigration law if coming across the border were my only hope of making more than 75 cents an hour. I have spoken with many undocumented people who walked from Central America to South Texas just to work for three dollars an hour. A friend of mine married a woman twenty-five years his senior just to get a green card. Migrating women sleep with the coyotes or any other asshole they find, just hoping the US will allow a pregnant women to stay. People drown crossing the Rio Grande. People die from exposure, rattle snake bites, and diseases all the time in South Texas just trying to get into the United States.
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