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Post by matclone on Mar 27, 2007 14:59:27 GMT -5
You seem to be mixing up issues. What the public library holds (what people read for a variety of interests) is not the same as what languages we print gov't docs in. As to the latter, I find it interesting that the Colorado constitution was printed in German, Spanish, and English. I guess there was a reason for that.
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Post by bonniej2 on Mar 27, 2007 15:01:30 GMT -5
Matclone, you remind me that the small town of 3000 that I grew up in in Iowa had two Reformed Churches with exactly the same theology. The only difference was that one originally had their services in German and the other's were in Dutch.
They were both in English in the when I was growing up, but they didn't merge because the people were too hard headed to give up their church. Finally, the German church dwindled to the point where they couldn't sustain the building and most of the people came to the Dutch church in the 90's, but some refused and switched their affiliations to Methodist or Presbyterian or Lutheran because going to the Dutch church was too painful a memory that their church had folded. When the Dutch church built a larger building in the 1970's there was a service in the old building and then everyone walked to the new building. The services in the old building were in Dutch and my grandfather said the Lord's Prayer in Dutch.
It's not just a Spanish thing.
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Post by matclone on Mar 27, 2007 15:07:33 GMT -5
Thank you, Bonnie, for a real story about American life.
I'm guessing if one goes to the Amana Colonies (Iowa) these days, German is still spoken there.
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Post by bonniej2 on Mar 27, 2007 15:23:05 GMT -5
We weren't near there. I grew up in the NW corner, in Sibley.
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Post by FloggingSully on Mar 27, 2007 15:26:09 GMT -5
How do you know they don't know English? If they know English, then why would the City of Denver need to spend money to print documents in any other language? Is the city of Denver printing documents or is the public library (which is funded by the people of Denver, apparently 20% of which speak spanish) carrying materials in Spanish? The role of a public library is to provide the people in the community it serves with the materials they want. If 1 out of 5 people in Denver speak spanish and want spanish materials in their library why shouldn't the library provide them?
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Post by FloggingSully on Mar 27, 2007 15:27:58 GMT -5
I'm guessing if one goes to the Amana Colonies (Iowa) these days, German is still spoken there. What!?!? they speak GERMAN there?!?!?!?! why can't they assimilate??
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Post by matclone on Mar 27, 2007 15:28:23 GMT -5
Immigrants settled everywhere.
There's a story in my family, about my great-great grandfather. A shoemaker from the old country (Sweden), he was kind of grumpy and pretty much stayed upstairs in his room (the setting is Iowa) and the children were afraid of him. I don't know, but I'm guessing he was out of sorts in part because he was in a land strange to him, and I'm guessing he didn't speak English.
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Post by bonniej2 on Mar 27, 2007 15:32:10 GMT -5
Too bad, Matclone. He probably had a lot of good stories.
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Post by matclone on Mar 27, 2007 15:32:27 GMT -5
FloggingSully, the city library was/is carrying materials in Spanish. And I agree with your reasoning as to why they do this.
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Post by Flop the Nuts on Mar 27, 2007 16:01:11 GMT -5
If they know English, then why would the City of Denver need to spend money to print documents in any other language? Is the city of Denver printing documents or is the public library (which is funded by the people of Denver, apparently 20% of which speak spanish) carrying materials in Spanish? The role of a public library is to provide the people in the community it serves with the materials they want. If 1 out of 5 people in Denver speak spanish and want spanish materials in their library why shouldn't the library provide them? My bad. I thought we were talking about documentation, signage, and that sort of stuff. If we're talking about whether "My Pet Goat" should be printed in both Spanish and English, then they can do whatever they want.
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Post by bonniej2 on Mar 27, 2007 16:06:29 GMT -5
...If we're talking about whether "My Pet Goat" should be printed in both Spanish and English,
LOL!
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Post by lkwdsteve on Mar 27, 2007 17:00:15 GMT -5
You have Swedish blood Matclone? That explains it.
Actually I'm not sure what it explains.
Excellent posts Matclone. Really excellent. I find myself being swayed for the first time on a isuue where I've been pretty much a fence sitter.
Underlying assumptions ARE being made about the character of immigrants.
I don't know that it is classic racism but probably a form of it. The more different the looks, culture, and speech the more openings for those with a racist bent to make noise, I guess. Put it this way what if it were Canadians instead of Mexicans? Hey?
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Post by matclone on Mar 27, 2007 17:54:50 GMT -5
I've concluded there is a correlation between racism/xenophobia and the number and the extent of lies people are willing to make about others. You can see this historically in what we said about American Indians, and blacks, and each new wave of immigrants, pretty much which have all been villified in their time. Yes, my mother's side of the family is all Swede. Which makes me half. As to what that explains, I'm not sure, but it could have some bearing on my political thought. When I was in college, a professor had us read this essay by political scientist Daniel Elazar, in which he posited there three different political cultures in the U.S, i.e, three different expectations as to what government is and should do for us. It kind of stuck with me. I can't find the entire essay on line, but here's a short-winded explanation (see below). Anyway, I guess I strongly identify with the moralistic view, and perhaps to a lesser extent the individualist view--which just happen to be the predominant influences in the state of Iowa where I grew up. In Elazar's essay, he also showed a map of immigrant groups and where they landed in the U.S.--and moved--and carried some of their European political culture to the new land. And, the Swedes were strong in the upper midwest--where the moralistic political view is also strong. By contrast, in Iowa, the one pocket of individualist view (he had it broken down into specific places in each state) was in Cedar Rapids, where there was a heavy Czech population (can we say Zalesky?). So I guess this is a long way of saying maybe the Swede does explain something. My family wasn't particularly political except my dad was a union man. But I have no doubt I was shaped in some fashion by my Swedish heritage--as I think we all are shaped by our background. academic.regis.edu/jriley/421elazar.htm
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Avallone
Round of 12
Im just a big hairy American winning machine
Posts: 335
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Post by Avallone on Mar 27, 2007 19:48:05 GMT -5
Matclone said- Neither one of you answered Sully's perfectly legitimate question yet you continue to assert "they" aren't assimilating. Based on what? Avollone, no one's forcing your children to learn Spanish. Secondly, the assimiliation of prior waves of immigrants has taken on a sort of mythical status, that is unsupported by any history I've read. To the contrary, German immigrants in the 20th century, in several places sought to establish German-only (not bilingual) schools. They were unsuccessful but this history kind of blows away the notion that "they" (painting all as one) were eager assimilators.
In our High School and the city's around ours, spanish is a required credit in order to graduate. So yes they are forcing my children to learn spanish. Why is this? Also why do they have drivers tests in spanish? Have you ever seen a street sign in spanish? I have not so should the test not be in English since all the street signs are in English? Do you have any answers to these questions? My great grandparents immigrated from Italy and as the story has been passed down to me, they could not wait to learn English and start life in their new country.
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Post by lkwdsteve on Mar 27, 2007 21:52:58 GMT -5
Avallone, Can't answer your question. But I have one. If a person can't pass an English-written driving test, does that mean they don't know how to drive?
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