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Post by ugly on Mar 28, 2007 8:05:02 GMT -5
I am in another discussion with som Athiest who insist that the causes of WWII were religious based. I argue that they are not that Hitler appealed to the nationalism of the German people after he felt they got hosed in the treaty of versaill. I am not denyting Hitlers personal belief or the events that took place, but the facts in my mind say nothing about WWII being the cause of religious motives. If you wanted to stretch things I thik you could say Hitlers fear of communism could be viewed in a vague way as a religious cause but I dont buy it.
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Post by lkwdsteve on Mar 28, 2007 8:36:29 GMT -5
"I argue that they are not that Hitler appealed to the nationalism of the German people after he felt they got hosed in the treaty of versaill."
That was one of his selling points. But in his rise to power he had to deal with established political parties of which the Catholic Center was a strong one. Remember he took power legally, in the pure political sense.
I got involved in a discussion about this, where someone arguing the "religion" angle of Hitler, linked a website that "cherry-picked" some of Hitler's speeches/conversations as proof that he was a Christian.
It was and is BS. They cited speeches from his early political efforts. He still had to appease Catholics in Germany in the late 20s. You simply cannot believe that what he might have said for political expedience represented his true thinking. His entire body of rhetoric is a study in disinformation, propaganda, and lies.
What was more important for understanding the mind of Herr Hitler was his writings, in particular Mein Kampf, And his ACTIONS.
Whe he finally took power he went about Nazifying Germany which included invading Churches and removing religious symbols in favor of Swaztikas and removing Bibles in favor of copies of Mein Kampf.
What religion did Hitler himself subscibe to? There is no question in my mind that you would call it Paganism, German style. He was a Pagan, through and through.
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Post by ugly on Mar 28, 2007 8:43:20 GMT -5
Exactly my point Steve, even after he took over control of Poland he closed down major Catholic churches and killed most of if not all of the religious leaders in that nation. I would say that Hitler used religious appeal to rise to power but his ego and insecurity would never have allowed him to let any religion rival the power he had over his people.
When Athiests tag certain wars and especially this one as religious, it isnt because of historical fact but because they want to promote their agenda.
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Post by Big on Mar 28, 2007 9:05:37 GMT -5
Maybe Hitler's motives were not religious but he used his motives in the same way Religious leaders use religion by advocating their religion is superior to others and to atheism.
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Post by ugly on Mar 28, 2007 9:13:49 GMT -5
Maybe Hitler's motives were not religious but he used his motives in the same way Religious leaders use religion by advocating their religion is superior to others and to atheism. Big would you not agree that the causes of WWII were not religious and to apply religious motives to the cause of the war is to simply advance an agenda.
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Post by Big on Mar 28, 2007 9:22:03 GMT -5
I read Mein Kumpf and I have an opinion that Hitler's main motives were to put Germany on a pedestal of the World, the superior people. However, i am saying it is not unlike Christians feeling the same way.
Hitler, at least in his speeches, used religion and stated that he was a religious man. I don't know how much of it was real.
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Post by ugly on Mar 28, 2007 9:47:46 GMT -5
I am not disagreeing with you but there is no hisorical evidence that would point to striclty religious motives being the reason for the war. The extermination of the Jews was not the reason Hitler went to war. Whether his thoughts or ambition paralell Christian thoughts is not a reason the war started.
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Post by ugly on Mar 28, 2007 9:49:51 GMT -5
He did preach certain ideology that became fanatacism in Germany, much like Christian fanatics during the crusades but Hitlers ideology was not religious.
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Post by Big on Mar 28, 2007 9:50:24 GMT -5
Right. Hitler began to hate Jews because many of them were wealthy while ethnic Germans were poor.
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Post by lkwdsteve on Mar 28, 2007 9:52:14 GMT -5
Big. Remember that politics came before religion did. The pragmatic poitical leader uses religion. Some religious leaders try to emulate politicains rather than the reverse.
"However, i am saying it is not unlike Christians feeling the same way."
Or communists feeling they are superior, n'est pas?
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Post by Big on Mar 28, 2007 9:57:25 GMT -5
Communism is an economic and political ideology. It is not ethnicity or divine devotion.
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Post by lkwdsteve on Mar 28, 2007 10:05:59 GMT -5
Communism is an economic and political ideology. It is not ethnicity or divine devotion. The insufferable superiorirty exhibited by the true communists very much remind me of religious fanatics.
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Post by matclone on Mar 28, 2007 10:19:13 GMT -5
And thus we have Arthur Koestler's "The God that Failed" (God, being communism)
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Post by FloggingSully on Mar 28, 2007 10:23:51 GMT -5
I think the answer to Ugly's question really depends on what definition of religion you use.
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Post by ugly on Mar 28, 2007 10:31:22 GMT -5
What would you say then Flogging about the issue?
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