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Post by kenshirtaugh on Feb 25, 2007 11:26:45 GMT -5
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Post by lkwdsteve on Feb 25, 2007 14:22:04 GMT -5
The hell you say.
I put this post on Yappi and ow.net, so I'll go ahead and break a personal record and post it in a third message board:
Is this year's Eds edition it's best ever?
Some dismiss the thought outright pointing out great teams from the 80s era. Going strictly by the numbers the candidates would seem to be 1983, 1984, 2000, 2005, and (perhaps) 2007.
A brief survey of the numbers.
1983
185.5 points. 8 finalists with 3 champs and 1 third for a total of nine podium spots. Champs: Bob Helderman, Brad Wright, and Frank Waite, and, other finalists, Craig Peterjohn, Roland Bonacci, Kevin Biggs, and Jeff Strauss.
1984
192.5 points. 6 finalists with 4 firsts, 2 thirds, and one forth for nine placers. Champs: Jeff Strauss, Peter Mitchell, James Keeler, and John Heffernan, and, other finalists Terrence Kennedy and David Held
Note that in 83 and 84, the larger AAA division alignment was in effect making for a more difficult and deeper state field. Also I don't know the total number of SQs for Eds either year. I, personally, never saw either of these teams in action. Any further thoughts would come from ignorance.
2000
186.5 points. 6 finalists with 5 champs. 1 third and 2 6ths for nine placers. 12 qualifiers out of Mentor in a year where Mentor sent top three instead of top 4 (costing HWY Wendlowski a spot). Unbeaten national champs.
2005
209.5 points. 7 finalists with three champs. 1 third, 4 6ths, and an eighth for THIRTEEN places for the thirteen qualifiers. A team that almost (sigh) beat Blair and had no weak weight anywhere in the lineup. Consider that the 152 who didn't qualify was Tomasone who was lost to injury in the sectional. Champs: Lance Palmer, Sean Nemec, Nick Marcellino and other finalists Shawn Harris, Keith Sulzer, Bryan Koz, Ben Kuhar.
The 2006 team again set the points record with 210, on the strength of 7 finalists, and 4 champs. Champs: Sulzer, Nemec, and both Palmers and other finalists Danny Gonsor, Kyle Bertin, and Brian Roddy. I rank them behind the 2005 squad because of only (I know) 10 placers.
2007
TBD.
This year's team crossed the rubicon by beating a GREAT Blair team in both tournament and dual action. With 11 district champs and 14 SQs, Eds dominated Mentor, but an immediate and predictable hue and cry is now heard about the downfall of the Mentor meatgrinder. "It's not what it used to be" is the thought du jour. And such thoughts have merit of course, so the last true test to measure the greatness of the 2006-2007 Eds team will be the state meet.
The names from 2000:
State champs
Ryan Lang 103
Mason Lenhard 119
Mark Jayne 125
Ryan Bertin 152
Zak Schweda 160
Second Place
Mark Moos 112
Third
Greg Hallahan 171
Sixth
Nick Mann 130
Chris Vondruska 135
Other SQs
Chris Leabu 2-2 record at 145
Matt Koz 2-2 record at 215
Paul Dunstan 1-2 record at 140
Non-SQs
Dan Wendlowski 275
John Bialowas 189
The names from 2007:
Nationally ranked by AWN
Chris Honeycutt-5th
Collin Palmer 125-4
Sean Nemec 160-5th
Brian Roddy 171-3rd
Shawn Harris 140-7th
Jamie Clark 103-3
Other current or former Fargo AAs
Danny Gonsor
Ben Kuhar
Neil Birt
Andrew Gasber
Rounding out the lineup
Nick Sulzer, district champ
Ben Rios, district champ
Scott Elliot, district runner up
Clarence Semple, 4th at distrcit
Those ranked by AWN are a great top 6. The next 5 are wrestlers that any team would love to have. That is a damn fine sixth through eleventh (rated by accomplishments, though I'd rank Sulzer's season as being ahead of Gasber's). Moving down the list, Ben Rios looks awkward on his feet and that seems to overshadow the fact that he is very good on the mat. That's how he "got" Hale yesterday. Elliot has vastly improved over the course of the season and what can you say about the third string 119 making it to state.
While it can correctly be stated that the Mentor District is not what it once was, it might not be right to diminish the exploits of these wrestlers just for that sole reason.
I predict that, in years to come, this team will be looked back on as something "special".
Best ever? Don't rule it out. TBD by the state meet performance.
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Ther you have it, Ken.
Call the dual:
103 Clark beats Lang.
112 Sulzer loses to Moos. Close
119 Semple loses to Lenhard
125 C. Palmer loses to Jayne. Close
130 Birt beats Mann. Close
135 Gasber loses to Vondruska. But.......
140 Harris beats Dunstan.
145 Gonsor beats Leabu.
152 Elliot gets smoked by Bertin.
160 Nemec beats Schweda.
171 Roddy beats Hallahan.
189 Honeycutt beats Bialowas.
215 Rios loses to Koz. Maybe. That's the freshman Matt Koz who didn't place at state.
275 Kuhar beats Wendlowski.
I have the current squad winning 8!!
Lots of tossups however and I could acknowledge room for disagreement.
LkwdSteve, your resident historian.
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Post by lkwdsteve on Feb 25, 2007 14:27:06 GMT -5
BTW, since I have reverence for age I only gave the 2007 Eds squad credit for SURE wins and that adds up to 8. They could win one or two more.
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Post by kenshirtaugh on Feb 25, 2007 15:39:29 GMT -5
LkwdSteve ERRrr..Mark Osgood resident historian. LOL
I too am a subscriber to the Old and New Testament of the Ohio wrestling Bible. BUT, you do take the time to do the crunching, so you deserve all the cred.
The only one I can really disagree with you on is at 103, how you gonna pick against Clubba?? Now that I take a closer look, I think you have to give the nod to the 2007 squad.
I was pulllin for the 2000 squad because that's the year I graduated, and grew up wrestling with most those guys..
Good Analysis StevO!!
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Post by lkwdsteve on Feb 25, 2007 18:49:31 GMT -5
I meant resident for this website (unless Mark is here incognito).
Freshman Jamie Clark against the freshman Ryan Lang? Lang won the Ironman and was 4th in the Beast. Probably was in the 103 national rankings, too, but I don't remember if or where. I saw each of Clark's 3 losses (Taylor, White, and Steiber) which may or may not be a better record than Lang put up in 2000. Clark avenged his loss to the national number one, Taylor, and may get his chance for a rubber match against White next weekend in a projected state final. I think he'll smoke White.
This would be an important match, since I now feel that Mann might be favored against Birt. Mann won the Ironman twice against Birt's third place and Fargo AA this year. Have to judge the relative strength of the Ironman in 1999 vs. the Ironman of 2006.
7-7 means bonus points and who the hell knows what woulda coulda shoulda.
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Post by kenshirtaugh on Feb 25, 2007 20:13:08 GMT -5
Lang lost 2 matches his Freshman year at the Beast, both losses were to wrestlers not from Ohio. Forget exactly who he lost to though...
Just giving you a hard time Historian Steve, EVERYONE knows biilytickets is teh best wretsling reported on the intrenet, just aks him!!
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Post by lkwdsteve on Feb 26, 2007 7:18:20 GMT -5
Bucksman projects 6 firsts and 12 placers for this year's team. I still can't get over the Mentor district. How the mighty have fallen. When Eds went 28-0 on the first day all I could think was that this wasn't right. I wrote on Yappi that I was speechless. And I was. The next day came the 14 SQs with 11 champs. It's a great team, but....................
Did you see the Ontario results? Some of the west side schools were out there and got a taste of those Toledo area division 2 powers, Oak Harbor and Pemberville Eastwood. At Akron Firestone, Walsh Jesuit only qualified 4 wrestlers for div 2 state. And SQs from both of those districts still have to deal with St. Paris Graham who also had 11 district champs.
My world has been turned upside down. Need a great showing at state to renew my faith in the Cleveland area's wrestling power and depth.
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Post by lkwdsteve on Mar 3, 2007 10:00:33 GMT -5
Eds took a hit in the semi-finals yesterday with three wrestlers losing, Harris, Gonsor, and Kuhar.
That gives them 6 finalists with two prohibitively favored, Honeycutt and Palmer; one strongly favored, Nemec; one slightly favored, Clark; one slight underdog, Roddy; and one underdog Sulzer.
Eds achieved 13 podium spots with one of them in the 7-8 slot. That compares fairly closely (so far) to the 2005 team outlined above.
By area:
Greater Cleveland-- 13 finalists
Other NE Ohio (Youngstown and Canton)-- 5 finalists
Columbus area-- 5 finalists
Cincinnatti-- 6 finalists*
*Cincinnattians are VERY pleased with that showing.
I hated missing yesterday but will be attending the finals.
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Post by therick on Mar 13, 2007 19:23:32 GMT -5
The only issue I have is that it should be noted that there is a huge difference in team scoring from now and those 80's teams. The state tournament is a completely different animal than it was back then. You really can't compare the two without making a lot of judgement calls.
#1, they only placed 6 back then
#2, it was follow your man to the finals. If the guy you lost to didn't make the finals, you didn't get into the wrestlebacks. So, all of those points earned in the wreslebacks from guys who lost to a non-finalist don't exist. Which makes the point totals elevated in general. The same applied to the district (regional back then) tournaments. It changed to follow to the semi in '91 when they went to Nutter and could fit 8 mats on the floor.
#3, as Steve already said.....AAA included more schools than the current D1 system.
#4, there were only 13 weight classes.....again, less people to earn points and elevate the total.
Now, I'm not saying that this team isn't the best ever. They very well may be, but those couple of things put what the 80's teams did in perspective a little more. 192.5 with limited wrestlebacks and one less weight class is amazing. Not only did they win, but they were pinning everyone. Not that they were better back then ( I don't get very sentimental) but it was just different.
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Post by lkwdsteve on Mar 14, 2007 6:55:07 GMT -5
The consensus on the local boards is that the state showing indicates that this Eds team is up there with the best of the past but not necessarily best of all time.
Part of it is the lack of depth at the state meet. But even more comes from the fall of of the Mentor District (in depth) that allowed 14 state qualifyiers in the first place. Having half the field from Toledo at Mentor really waters it down. No disrespect to Toledo, their small schools (Division 2 and 3) do real well at state. Put the 4 Cleveland area sectionals together at Mentor and Eds doesn't get 14 qualfiers, though this team is so strong they could get between 10 and 12. Spots at risk would be 112, 119, 130, 135, and 215, depending on draws.
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Post by therick on Mar 14, 2007 10:55:13 GMT -5
Good point Steve,
I think the OHSAA was being progressive when they split up the Cleveland sectionals. They realized that many state placer caliber kids were never making it out of the district at the old Mentor district. While it may water down that particular district. I think we're getting more of the kids at the state tournament that deserve to be there.
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Post by lkwdsteve on Mar 15, 2007 6:43:15 GMT -5
That's probably the case. I also can't imagine all the power that remained home when Walsh and Eds were both at Mentor before realignement from A-AA-AAA to 1-2-3 equalized the number of schools in each division.
It's presently true that Greater Cleveland needs about 4 and one-half sectionals (slightly more than an entire district) to accomodate their teams. So NEDAB has to deal with that. The last two years, part of Lake County has gone to the Youngstown sectional.
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